GWERN GWYNFIL / YES CYMRU - THE CASE FOR WELSH INDEPENDENCE
James Kennedy interviews Yes Cymru CEO Gwern Gwynfil on the case for Welsh independence. Gwynfil highlights how Wales has the resources to thrive like other small European nations, free from Westminster. The conversation concludes with a call to join Yes Cymru and normalize discussions about Wales's future.
James Kennedy: I figured it'd be about time to jump feet first into the subject of Welsh independence. And you know me, I don't mess around, so if we're going to discuss a subject, we're going straight to the top. And who better to give us the lowdown on the subject of Welsh independence but the main man himself, the CEO, the top dog of Yes Cymru, the campaign for Welsh independence, Mr. Gwern Gwynfil. Gwern, thank you so much for doing this, man. I really appreciate you taking time out to speak with us. How you doing, sir?
Gwern Gwynfil: Yeah, I'm good. How are you? Thank you for having me.
James Kennedy: Not at all, man. Yeah, I'm good, thank you, bro, and I really appreciate you taking the time out to speak with me. I appreciate you coming on because it's a fascinating subject that I've been interested in for a while now. So I'm really looking forward to getting into it with you today, but for the purpose of the conversation today, I'm going to pretend I know nothing and hopefully, you know, we can explore the issue from that perspective, because there are a lot of international listeners on this podcast who won't know anything about the situation here in the UK and also people within, you know, the UK itself, including Wales, who don't know enough about, you know, what some of the very valid reasons for the case of Welsh independence might be. So if you're cool to just jump right in. I mean, it would be great to start with the general overview for what is the case for Welsh independence.
Gwern Gwynfil: Okay, well, let's start with—you referenced some international listeners there, and for international listeners it's particularly interesting and fascinating because they just cannot understand, they cannot get their heads around why Wales isn't independent. They see Wales on the world stage as a sporting nation playing football in the World Cup, you know, doing incredibly well. I think on a population basis, Wales is one of the top three most successful sporting nations in the world. So why are we not independent? A couple of weekends ago we played football against Latvia, 1.8 million people, independent nation. We played rugby against Fiji, 1 million people, independent nation. And I have two friends in particular who always bang on about this. One guy from Iceland, Helgi, who I made friends with because I pointed out to him that Helgi means hunting hound in Welsh, and basically we've been friends ever since. So there's Helgi, and then there's a journalist from Estonia, and both of them, they can't understand why all of Wales doesn't want to be independent. And what they say is, well, look, the other small independent nations in Europe, there's loads of them. There's Slovenia, there's Estonia, there's us, you know, there's Iceland, there's Croatia, there's loads, absolutely loads. I mean, since the end of the Second World War, there's close to a hundred new independent nations in the world. I think there was about 99 at the end in 1945, and I think we're up to 196 nations in the world now, sovereign nations. So why isn't Wales independent? It's only for us here who have grown up within a system, of the mindset of being part of this system, where essentially we're allowing a much bigger nation next door to tell us how we can behave, what we can do, and what we should do in the future. And they take all the things that we produce and they give us back some crumbs, and that's roughly where we are. But it's very hard for us to see that in Wales, very easy to see it when you're standing outside. You know, and anybody who goes on holiday and talks to people in any of these small nations, they will very quickly see that, you know, people cannot understand why we're not independent. So that's where we are in terms of the international context. Obviously, it's a lot more complicated for us here in Wales itself. And obviously, we have an awful lot of lies to deal with. I saw that plank from Delyn, Rob Roberts, the other day, you know, trying to put the case saying that devolution is a failed experiment and it should be abolished and we should just basically let ourselves be run from Westminster and London entirely. And peddling out some lies, you know, he did that usual "Wales is subsidized by 20 billion or 18 billion from London", which is obviously the entire budget of the Senedd, as though Wales doesn't actually give anything, it's just, you know, taking things. And it's a total misrepresentation. I mean, we could easily—I mean, I don't like the misuse of statistics, but if I did, I could say, well, look, we generate indirect taxation for the exchequer, 30 billion. So we give London 30 billion and they give us 20 billion back. That's not fair. It doesn't work like that. It's much more complicated than that. But that's the sort of, that's the kind of level of debate that we have to deal with, isn't it?
James Kennedy: Yeah, unfortunately so. And so, what then is wrong with the current system that we have?
Gwern Gwynfil: Okay, good question. So Wales has been part of the United Kingdom for about 500 years. And that's kind of okay if everybody's getting richer, isn't it? You know, a rising tide raises all boats. And as long as you're getting richer, you're sort of, oh yeah, Mark Drakeford says, you know, there's an insurance policy and there's a social union. You know, Mark Drakeford is very much into the social union, not so much the economic one, but the social union. And we are getting slightly wealthier, even though we're much poorer than everybody else, we are still getting slightly, slightly wealthier. But if you take the financial center of London out of the UK economy, Poland are now wealthier. And not only that, they're higher than anywhere else in the UK. So we're feeling inflation more keenly. And wage growth in Wales is lower than anywhere else in the UK. So we are getting poorer faster than everybody else who is also getting poorer across the UK. So the UK just isn't working. It's not working for anybody, but it's particularly not working for Wales. And anybody who tells me that Wales cannot do better themselves is frankly talking out of their ass. Because what they're doing is looking at the current system that's been imposed on Wales and saying, look, the current system is broken. And some argue we have to fix it first before we leave. But you can't fix it, because it's not your system. It's next door's system. It's like letting the farmer next door tell you how to run your fields. You're doing it for them, you're not doing it for yourself. Or the shop next door telling you how to price your goods. It's their idea, not yours. But when we step away, like the international people do, and look at what Wales has and what the basics are in Wales, we have fantastic basics. Good infrastructure. I know it's not great north-south, but it's still great. We've got great infrastructure. 22,000 miles worth of road. We do have railways, which are improving. They're not as good as they would be if we were an independent nation. You need to have good railways. There'd be a North-South railway connection if we were an independent nation. It just never would have gone away. So we've got infrastructure. We have amazing education infrastructure. Some of the best universities in Europe. We have great teachers. We've got all of that. We've got a well-educated workforce. We've got a skilled workforce. We have one of the biggest, best natural deep harbors in the world. We are absolutely key as a key point in the energy infrastructure, not just for England, but for Europe. We've got vast, vast mileage of coastline, which is beautiful and stunning. We've got mountains, which are also stunning. You know, we've got all of this. All that seabed, which is going to be hugely important when it comes to green energy and the green energy revolution. And yet people are saying to us, "You can't do it, guys. You haven't got what it takes." And my answer to them is, bollocks. It's on you. Of course we can. Let us go. We'll do it.
James Kennedy: Love that answer, man. Love it. I'm getting fired up already. So what's the public feeling for this on the streets in Wales then at the moment?
Gwern Gwynfil: Okay, that's a really interesting question. If I get too lost in data here, you might want to rein me in, because I'm a total data nerd. I'm a total data geek and a total data nerd. So there's a couple of really interesting things to look at. In 2014, Scotland were having their first independence referendum. Just before that referendum, there was one poll in Wales. "What do you feel about Welsh independence?" And fewer than 10%, less than 10% were in favour of independence at the time. So that's nine years ago. And then since then, there was still not much polling. Maybe one a year for Wales up to about 2018. And suddenly from 2018, we've got loads and loads of polling data. You know, these days you're getting a poll a month almost for Wales which is asking the question. So you've now got trend lines. So from that sort of fixed point of less than 10% just before the Scottish referendum, you've got a steady increase. And the most recent poll by Redfield & Wilton Strategies put us on 38% in favour of independence in Wales. In nine years, you know, you've gone from less than 10 to 38%. My Scottish colleagues in the Scottish Yes campaign are very jealous because we've not had a referendum campaign. We've not had any of this. We've basically not really tried. But Wales has started to wake up and go, wait a minute, this just isn't working for us. We can do better than this, and have started changing their own minds. And within that data, there are two interesting things. One is the trend line. So if you follow the trend line of the data, nine years from now, in 2032, 60% of Wales is in favour of independence. I think we can get there faster because these things accumulate, don't they? Once somebody changes their mind, they start to talk to other people. And the arguments in favour of independence are so much stronger than the arguments in favour of the union. So you can get a snowball effect and a tipping point. You know, I genuinely believe that if we had more resources in my organisation, the Yes campaign, if we had more resources, within a year or two, maybe three years, we could have a majority in favour of independence just by having the ability to get the message out there in ways that we can't at the moment. So the other thing—the other things about the data sets are: young people, if you're under 34, more than half, basically, of under 34s in Wales are now in favour of independence. So demography is on our side. You know, there's an odd bit in some of the data, it would suggest that the generation between 44 and 54, my generation, are less in favour of independence at the moment. And that could just be that when you're in our generation, at our age, you've got so much going on, you know, the challenges of the cost of living crisis, kids to feed, you know, you're busy, you're working really hard. So maybe there's just not enough space to think about the arguments for and against independence. And it's a question, again, for us to make that conversation happen and bring them across. So that's where the data puts us in terms of where we are in independence. And then another interesting data set, which has just come out quite recently, is attitudes towards the union across the UK. There's a massive piece of research over 10 years by our very own Professor Richard Wyn Jones here in Cardiff and Professor Ailsa Henderson up in Scotland doing it for the IPPR. So totally objective, doing all four nations. Most fascinating thing about that is nowhere in the UK is there majority support for the union anymore.
James Kennedy: Wow!
Gwern Gwynfil: Yeah, I know, it's mind-blowing, isn't it?
James Kennedy: Not even in England, I would have thought. I thought they'd be all over it.
Gwern Gwynfil: No, no. And, you know, England are particularly not bothered about Northern Ireland leaving or, you know, when they think about it in isolation. And why would they be? I mean, we forget this, you know—the Scottish independence argument forgets it, we forget it. When Wales becomes independent, because we will, remember that we're changing the international landscape, having a new nation on an international stage. That's a global change. And what are the ripples from Wales? When Wales becomes independent, they won't be massive, but they will be there. They will filter out. And that is actually going to be a fantastic thing for England as well. And I think that's part of the argument that we need to make. You know, this isn't just Welsh independence and Scottish independence. This is also English independence. And if ever there was a country of 55 million in need of renewal, then it's England today. I mean, you know, everything is frankly a bit of a shitshow. And they have no innovative thinking. Their politicians on both sides of the debate are not presenting anything new or fresh to them. You know, this would be good for England too. And I think that's an important key part of the debate. It's not just about Wales, it's not just about Scotland, it is about all the nations of what is now the British Isles. And the British Isles will still be here, just have different relationships, better relationships with each other, and relationships which will be more reflective of our individual and unique cultures. And that diversity will actually strengthen what is now the United Kingdom as a new British Isles, a new group of nations who are all next door to each other, working together. A bit more like the Scandinavian countries and less like the sort of distant memory of what the British Empire was in the 19th and 20th century.
James Kennedy: Yeah, I like the sound of that, man. I mean, in playing devil's advocate then, would there be a case that could be made, though, for being part of a bigger union on the world stage? Would that give us more security and more power? Would we be better off improving what we've got and making the current union that we're a part of better and more equal for all of its members? Would that be a better route to take? Is that even possible at this point? And is there a case that could be made for that?
Gwern Gwynfil: So I try very hard to think like a unionist and make the unionist case. It's actually incredibly difficult to make a strong case for the union, even on that basis, because, you know, the UK today is not a huge and influential power. It is a small power. Geopolitics has changed. Centres of influence have changed. We're looking at the USA and China now, really, as the global powers. Other small nations need to come together if they want to have an influence, and they have to do that. And the United Kingdom is a bit player at best at that stage at the moment and has, in fact, over the last 10 years made itself even more irrelevant on that stage by, frankly, behaving in often crazy ways. So it's a very difficult argument to make. And the other problem with that argument is, this is Mark Drakeford's argument, isn't it? He argues for the equality of the nations within the union, you know, that we're a union of equals, but we're not and we never can be because there's 55 million people in England, 55 million people who are not interested in federalism or confederalism. The IPPR research makes that very clear. They don't want to break up England. They like England as a whole unit, which means that if you have any kind of federal or confederal system, it won't work because there's 55 million people. So there's a graphic example of that happening at the moment. Wales is going from 40 MPs to 32 MPs. So we will have even less influence. And that's why we're not going to have a voice in Westminster. You know, even if all 32 of those MPs voted together against something, it's not even a vague echo in the background. No one's going to take any notice. And it's why Keir Starmer is playing entirely to what is called Middle England with his appeal for votes. It's why the priorities that are set by Westminster are never Welsh priorities, ever. It's why they're not bothered about things like the Crown Estate. You know, they're happy to take all the income. They're happy to take all the income from the Crown Estate because they don't have to give Wales anything, because Wales has no influence. Wales has no power. You know, they can ignore Wales and they do, you know, and occasionally they'll throw us some crumbs from the table. They expect us to contribute to the baking of the cake and we're meant to be happy with this. And unfortunately, too often, we have been happy with this. But that has to stop because we can be so much more in Wales. To go back to the things I said about the basic building blocks we have in Wales of a successful, vibrant, independent nation in the 21st century, particularly with all the digital, technological innovation that there is now. I mean, we can really be so much more than we're allowed to be. All there is for us in the union, you know, we lose far more than we gain. On that balance, on those scales, we just lose an awful lot more.
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James Kennedy: Yeah, great point, well made, man. What about Europe then? You know, could an independent Wales rekindle some kind of relationship with Europe? Would that be a possibility even, or of benefit to an independent Wales?
Gwern Gwynfil: Well, this is an interesting conversation, isn't it? I mean, that's a decision for the people of a democracy once it's an independent nation. But there's this assumption—and Scotland make this assumption amongst the pro-European lobby in particular—that Europe will want you. Everything that's happened with the UK as a whole, you're a constituent part of the UK as a whole, and all that, you know, the Brexit shitshow and the toxic discussions that they had, and the still toxic relationship at many levels between Europe, the European Union, and the UK today. You know, why would the European Union say, "Oh, yeah, guys, come on, come join us"? I think if we did want to join, we would have some supporters. Ireland—I think it'll be a united Ireland soon. That's inevitable because it's baked into the Good Friday Agreement. You know, I think Ireland would definitely be very supportive if the people of Wales wanted to be part of Europe, partly because for Ireland, a closer relationship with an independent Wales would be hugely beneficial. Not only, you know, they're another nation that will be producing far more energy than they use, for example. And the only way for them to get that from Ireland to the mainland, to the continent, is basically through Wales and then through England. So they really need a good relationship with Wales for that energy, and lots of other things. I mean, they're our nearest neighbours, aren't they? You know, they're right next door. So all of that is true. From our perspective, we don't actually take a position on the European Union, because it's putting the cart before the horse, isn't it? You know, we've got to be an independent nation first. Absolutely have to be. And then we can start having grown-up discussions about all of those things.
James Kennedy: Of course, yeah, because Yes Cymru is not a political party. It is purely a campaign for Welsh independence. You're going to leave the politics up to the Welsh people to decide who they want to vote for and elect in an independent government after the fact. So that makes a lot of sense.
Gwern Gwynfil: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And obviously, in that independent Wales, there will be politicians from every part of the political spectrum. You know, we will have right-wingers, left-wingers, centrists, you know, liberals, conservatives, socialists, they'll all be there, just as they are now. They'll all be needing to make their case how that independent nation is going to be run. I've recently been doing an awful lot of work on Slovenia. Slovenia has 2.1 million people. And the reason I decided to do quite a lot of analysis on Slovenia was because back in 1991, when they became independent, on the GDP measure—which isn't a great measure, but at least it's uniform across nations—on the GDP per head measure, they were poorer than Wales. But just before the pandemic, Slovenia overtook Wales. And Slovenia became wealthier than Wales, and remain wealthier than Wales. And more than that, the wealth gap, even though it's just a normal modern Western democracy, is narrower than anywhere else in Europe, pretty much. They have a more equal society than pretty much anywhere else in Europe. And their quality of life, their scores on the quality of life metrics are off the charts relative to Wales. You know, this is a happy, vibrant, small, independent nation, with, frankly, far less to offer than Wales in terms of natural resources, in terms of its starting point in 1991. And what's been interesting, and why I brought it up now, what's been interesting about the analysis is the range of political governance it's had. So it's basically been left of centre, it's been centrist, it's been right of centre, it's come back and forth. You know, they've had a few political scandals, they've had a little bit of a corruption scandal at one point, you know, all things that are the meat and drink of politics in the modern world, it would seem. And yet, despite all of that, relatively consistent, sensible economic policy, you know, they've worked hard to grow their nation and their sense of identity, and they've worked hard to do what is best for their population. So they put their own priorities and their own population first, always. And people know that, and it pays dividends, and you develop confidence, and then ambition comes from that, and the ambition and the confidence becomes a virtuous circle.
James Kennedy: Virtuous circle, good name for a band, man. Well, that's incredible, man, that there's like a modern example kind of on our doorstep in Slovenia, of a country of comparable size, of comparable demographics and population figures, who've walked this path before us, with all of the proven benefits that you're talking about for Wales. So we've got an example that we can look to of a country right there that's doing it now, with a similar size and a similar population that's actually doing it. So that's amazing. But in terms of getting there then, given where we're starting from, what would the process be like in actually making this happen? I mean, would it be a bureaucratic nightmare? Are we talking about decades before this is possible? Or is this something that could, in theory, be turned around relatively quickly? I mean, what would the process be?
Gwern Gwynfil: So there's quite a famous political quotation, which I love and I live by, which is that you cannot govern without the consent of the governed. So I think once you have a majority, then that forces the issue, in the way that it's forcing the issue in Scotland. But in terms of the mechanics, what I would like to see is England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland and Ireland—because Northern Ireland isn't independent as such, it's reunification with the rest of the island of Ireland—all sitting down and creating this unwinding in as sensible a way as possible. Because that gives the best outcome for all of the nations. And that creates a new situation, almost a British Union from the starting point, doesn't it? Where you've got a healthy relationship, and where everybody understands that the better that is, the better it will be for everybody. So you're setting out with the objective of making sure that your nearest neighbours come out of it as strongly as possible, stronger than now if possible, so that everybody then gets to move forward with a strong, strong relationship with all the nations around them. And I don't think that—I mean, it sounds idealistic. It might be idealistic, but it's incredibly sensible too. And it shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility to persuade sensible leaders in all the nations to do this. It may not happen that way. It may come to a referendum, we win the referendum, and then it might be a more confrontational renegotiation of the relationship. But let me hope not. You know, let's hope that people have had enough. My feeling is certainly on doorsteps and around is that the toxic nature of politics in the UK and the confrontational nature of it, the lies, the misinformation—my impression is that the vast majority are fed up to the back teeth with it.
James Kennedy: Yeah, I feel that, man, definitely. I feel like everyone has just been rinsed and screwed so fucking hard now, especially for the last 13 years, that even the middle classes are getting angry and pissed off, you know what I mean? So I just think they've pushed us all too hard. And I think that kind of leads to another reason for Welsh independence, because it brings the mechanics of power and the machinery of power closer to home, doesn't it? And I'm a big advocate for bringing democracy closer to the people that are affected by it. Like if we want to protest something, you know, we've got to go to London and do it in Westminster. Well, how many people are really going to do that on a regular basis? Not many. But if it was in Cardiff, say, you know, then we can make as much noise as we want as regularly as possible. And I think that's a good thing, you know, and that is part of the participatory nature of a true democracy, isn't it? Not a democracy that is 300 miles away.
Gwern Gwynfil: And it gets people re-engaged, doesn't it? Because we are very disengaged from politics. Now, I'm going to tell you another story about Iceland, a different Icelandic friend to my friend Helgi the hunting hound. And I didn't believe this story when I first heard it, this must be 25 years ago. And he was telling me—he was a good friend of my father's—and he was telling me about the pothole on the road outside his house for a year and a half. And it was annoying the hell out of him after a year and a half because he was driving through it every day and it was battering his car, you know, and he said to me, "I picked up the phone and I called the minister." And I went, "No, you didn't. You did not call the minister. You didn't just pick up the phone and call the minister." And he went, "Yes, I did. The secretary was on a day off." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" And it transpires he was telling the truth, because there's 380,000 people in Iceland. And he got through to the minister and he chewed him out for 20 minutes, chewed her out, I think, for 20 minutes, and the pothole was fixed. Now, I'm not saying that Wales is going to have that level of direct democracy, because we are still 3 million people. But the point of having your politicians being accessible and having networks and structures which allow you to contribute actively in positive ways to the debate and the discussion and the decisions is a massive one. And I think it's a big deal. Especially today, you know, it's so easy to have citizen democracy in a world where we've got the kind of technological advancements that we've had. And another interesting example actually is that they decided after they became independent in 1944—they pretty much just adopted a constitution that was already written and adjusted a little bit, and used it with the idea of writing their own constitution when they found the time—anyway, they're finally getting around to doing that now. There's no rush once you're independent, obviously. And in doing that, they have brought together citizen assemblies from across the whole of Iceland. Those citizen assemblies across the whole of Iceland are feeding into that national debate about the constitution, so that new constitution, everybody in Iceland will have ownership of that new constitution. And that would be a lovely thing in a newly independent Wales, so that everybody has a voice in the new constitution of the new nation.
James Kennedy: 100%. Oh yeah, that'd be incredible. I mean, like, the fact that we don't have a constitution is absolutely mental, isn't it, in a modern democracy, you know what I mean? So to give us that ability to start fresh and to redesign our economy and our society in the modern era that we're in, with everything that we know now and everything that we can learn from our neighbors around the world, I think would be incredibly powerful.
Gwern Gwynfil: Oh, absolutely. And it's such an opportunity because, you know, the industrial age has come to an end, it is starting the 21st century. We're just at the start of that, with all this artificial intelligence and the impact it's going to have, the fact that you and I are now here on Zoom recording a podcast, you know, the advent of podcasts, the way the media has changed, all of that. We're right at the start of that process, so there's masses and masses of opportunities. And in a way, as a brand new independent nation, there are lots of advantages to be gained from that, because you've almost got a clean slate, don't you? You can do so much and you can change so much so quickly. And that can be a spark for cultural change and renewal and revitalization. It can be a spark for that brand new political engagement we were talking about, because all of a sudden we're not just winning on the rugby field or winning on the football field or winning gold medals in the Olympics, which we do in Wales—I mean, we're tiny, but we win gold medals, it's phenomenal. And in the Olympics, when we win gold medals, the Welsh dragon will be marched out there with the Welsh team marching behind it, and when we win those gold medals, it'll be the Welsh dragon that goes up and the Welsh national anthem that'll be played. How much of a difference does that make to your confidence as a nation? That will filter through every aspect of life in Wales. It'll be transformative for Wales, honestly, it really will.
James Kennedy: Love it! Well, you've got me fired up, bro. I'm ready to go, man. Where do we start? Let's do this thing. I'm sure that if any Welsh people listen to this, they are going to feel very much the same as well. So I hope we've made a few converts during this conversation. And if that's the case, what can people do to get involved? How do people support this noble and urgent cause that is going to be so beneficial for all of us? What can they do?
Gwern Gwynfil: So joining Yes Cymru is one fantastic way of doing it. I mean, we've got thousands of members, but if we have more members, that gives us a louder voice everywhere. And having a louder voice means that more people are listening. And if more people are listening, more people are thinking about independence. And if more people are thinking about independence, then I absolutely guarantee that more people will be coming across to the cause of independence, because the more you think about it, the more obvious it becomes that it's the way forward for Wales—and indeed for Scotland, although it is different in Scotland. So that's the first thing. And then if you have the energy, you can sign up to volunteer. You can join your local Yes Cymru group. You can go along to their meetings. Each Yes Cymru group—we're very much a grassroots organization—so they do their own thing in support of independence. The one in Bro Ffestiniog, for instance, has an event this Friday, they have music and discussion events in a place called Noson Caban. A lot of the ones in South Wales like to go out on a Saturday or Sunday and count the beeps with their banners on the bridges. We've got banners on beaches as well. So those are great fun, and that's a great way of meeting other like-minded volunteers and dipping your foot into volunteering, and it allows you to strengthen your knowledge of the arguments for independence before you start having those conversations. So that's what I would say to people: join Yes Cymru, read about independence, read Nation.Cymru—there's a lot of good stuff on that, I'm only saying this because I write so many op-eds. So there's all of that. And then slowly you'll find yourself becoming more comfortable talking about independence, more and more comfortable being a volunteer, and then that will in itself just draw you slowly into doing more and more. And our goal is that we're slowly making progress, we're growing that network across organizations, so that if at some point there is, let's say, a referendum campaign or we do need to be out there, we have a network of volunteers throughout the whole of Wales who have built up their confidence and are ready to go, ready to get out there and ready to talk to people, ready to make the case. We can really make sure that we don't just become an independent nation with 51 percent of us in favor of independence, but because there's 60 percent of us in favor of independence and another 20 percent who are quite open to independence. And when it happens, we'll be on board, so that we really start our new history as an independent nation on a positive footing with everybody on board and really wanting it to succeed. And then it will succeed, there's absolutely no way you can stop that kind of people power.
James Kennedy: Love it, love it, yeah, love it, man. I mean, it sounds as if we're on that trajectory already, like you say, you know, the way things are heading we're forecast for 60 percent before long. So I suppose the priority right now for everybody listening to this is to amplify, you know, educate yourself, clue up on the issues, spread the word, talk about it, amplify it on social media, which is very powerful, amplify it in the pub, you know, like normalize the issue and let people know that this is possible and that this is essential for the health and well-being and prosperity of the country that we live in. So if they want to get involved directly on social media, Yes Cymru, you're on everything: Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @YesCymru, and the website is yes.cymru as well. There's loads of information and links where you can get involved directly on there as well. Please share the posts that the guys put out on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, and yeah, I think just normalizing the issue like that will speed up that trajectory now towards 60 or more. And work on the belligerent bastards in your age group in the 50s who are not yet on board, you know, I'm sure we can do that, get them on board. I think we're onto a winner.
Gwern Gwynfil: Absolutely, it's conversations, isn't it? Conversations, talk about it, talk about it, talk about it, because the arguments are so much more in favor, they are so strong in favor of independence relative to those in favor of the status quo, which doesn't work, it's just broken.
James Kennedy: Amen, man. No, you've totally got me signed up, dude, and I think anyone listening to this can just see that this is the most sensible, common sense, and rational and logical and best thing for the people of Wales. And it's exciting, too, man. I mean, who wouldn't want to be a part of this historic new independence, you know, being able to forge our own constitution and our own future and our own way of life and our own democracy? That's exciting. Who doesn't want to be a part of that?
Gwern Gwynfil: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it is an exciting piece of history. That's one of the things we didn't mention earlier, you know, how many people will come back to an independent Wales to want to be part of that history? We just don't know, do we? But I imagine there'll be quite a lot of people who think, "Ah, I'm going to go home, I want to be a part of building this new nation." And attitudes will change throughout, you know, that sort of head-down, everybody being a little bit downtrodden, that'll be out the window because you've got a new, brighter future which is in your hands. I think that's the difference, isn't it? You've got agency and it's my future to write, it's our future to write, not someone else telling us what we're going to do. Down to us now, we can do it. It's a little bit Barack Obama "Yes We Can", but we can, yeah, that's the thing. I wrote something for Nation—the Indie ABC: Ambition, Bravery, Confidence. That's what we need.
Key Points:
The episode focuses on Welsh independence with guest Gwern Gwynfil, CEO of Yes Cymru.
Gwynfil argues Wales has strong fundamentals—infrastructure, education, energy, and natural resources—to succeed as an independent nation.
Support for Welsh independence has risen from under 10% in 2014 to 38% in recent polling, with majority backing among under-34s.
He contends the UK union no longer serves Wales, citing reduced parliamentary representation and policies that ignore Welsh priorities.
Slovenia is presented as a comparable small nation that gained independence and now enjoys greater wealth and equality than Wales.
Gwynfil encourages joining Yes Cymru, volunteering, and normalizing conversations about independence to build momentum.
Summary:
The topic of this episode of the James Kennedy Podcast is Welsh independence, interviewing Gwern Gwynfil, CEO of Yes Cymru.
Gwynfil outlines the case for independence, noting that international observers find it puzzling that Wales remains part of the UK given its distinct sporting and cultural identity. He argues that Wales possesses strong foundations—infrastructure, universities, energy resources, and a skilled workforce—that are being undermined by a broken UK system. Polling shows support for independence has grown from under 10% in 2014 to 38%, with a majority of under-34s in favor.
Gwynfil cites Slovenia as a successful comparable nation and suggests that independence could benefit all parts of the British Isles. The conversation ends with a call to action: join Yes Cymru, volunteer, and normalize the conversation to accelerate progress toward independence.
The James Kennedy Podcast is a Society and Culture podcast hosted by musician and author, James Kennedy. Exploring the big questions around health, social issues, the arts, politics, mental health, the human condition and how to navigate this thing called life through casual conversations with scientists, activists, rock stars, philosophers and academics. Please subscribe, leave a rating and support the show.
