James Kennedy interviews Mark Chadwick, of the iconic alternative rock band The Levellers, to discuss the state of global politics, the evolution of the music industry over the past 35 years, the realities of independent music distribution, and what fans can expect from their upcoming acoustic theatre tour and festival dates.
James Kennedy Mr. Mark Chadwick, thanks so much for doing this, man. How are you doing?
Mark Chadwick: I'm very well, thanks. How are you?
James Kennedy: I'm good, thanks, man. I think you might actually be the first guest to actually ask me how I'm doing. So I appreciate that, man. And I know that that bodes well for the rest of the chat. So I thought we would start, before we jump into the music, and the band, and everything, let's clear the air, let's get some shit off our chest, and let's do a little bit of politics first, if you're okay with that.
Mark Chadwick: Always!
James Kennedy: I fear I may have kicked a wasp's nest now. What is your take, then, as we start a new year, 2023, as you look around you and survey the terrain and the heartbreaking shitshow that we see around us, what is your take on how we got here and what the fuck is going on?
Mark Chadwick: How did we get here? I think it's a long story, but where we’re at is beyond desperate. There is no denying that. And it is a global situation. Our country is leading the way in how crap the world can actually possibly be and how quickly things can change from a reasonable sort of level of crap government to, oh my God, this is just beyond unusual. This is a hypocrisy. This is just appalling. And it's obvious how it's happened and why it's happened, but it's like, how quickly it can happen. And how people don't feel they can do anything about it. That's the weirdest bit. Everyone's looking at their internet news or whatever they get in their Facebook news, the news, whatever their paper is. And they're just feeling completely unable to do anything about it. They're watching this thing as if it's not really happening to them. It's all happening. And it's across the board. It's not one bit. There's not one bit of it that's working. It's everything that's broken. Literally everything. You do a system to the service. It's like, okay, and everything in between. It's like, okay, that's pretty serious. That's the serious neglect. And it is shocking. And everyone's just going to look and go, wow, this is crazy. It is crazy. And in levels, it's bad. We've been putting this shit out for a long time. A really long time. I don't know if people know your levels are political bad. We're not. We're observational bad. We observe the world we live in. We don't tell people how to live their lives. Look, this is what, this is going down. And this is, this is a good thing. This may not be such a great thing. And that's what we do. And that's what we've been always done. And if the world had listened to us, we wouldn't be in this shit now. Fact.
James Kennedy: 100%. I totally agree. I think everybody listening would agree with that, Mark. I mean, you've been in the business, what, how long has the band been together? 35 years now? 35, 36, something like that. 35. So, I mean, you've been in the business for a long time. You've been doing social commentary and political commentary now for a long time. As you look at the state of the world or the country today, how do you feel it fares up, when you compare it to the late 70s, early 80s, the Thatcher years?
Mark Chadwick: It's never been this bad. So that's a simple fact. And people of the generation older than mine would say the same. They're like, oh my God, this is literally shocking. This is worse than the winter of discontent in 79. This is worse than Thatcher's attack of the nationalized industries. This is worse. This is worse than anything. This is worse than the Criminal Justice Act of the 90s. This is worse than any erosion. This is like, this is, this is corrosion.
James Kennedy: Well put, man. Well said. And what have you seen in the social change as well? What have you seen in terms of how people are responding to this stuff compared to what you saw in the 80s with everything that was going on?
Mark Chadwick: Well, I'm amazed. I mean, back in the day, people were more political in the 80s, they were. Even pop music was political in the 80s, believe it or not. A lot of music was political. So when the Levellers came out in the late 80s, it was quite natural to be quite political with your music. It wasn't a big deal. It became not so much in the 90s. We were pretty much the, everyone else was having a party. So were we. But it was like party time. And that kind of led us into a false sense of security, I think, for a lot of people. And consequently, younger generation never really picked up on that vibe of actually taking to the streets like the poll tax riots, which was in the end of the 80s, where people actually like fuck this, this is dreadful. We need to do something, riots against student loans, all those sort of things. Big, big deal. People would take to the streets, young people would take to the streets and smash shit up. They just don't. They just look at it and just tick a like. “I hate that too, boy”.
James Kennedy: And it is always hate as well. I hate that. That's it. That's the only thing.
Mark Chadwick: “I like hating that”
James Kennedy: But people think “oh, somehow I've swayed. I've done something”. People get that little bit of morphine into their brain. “I've done something”. No you haven’t. I'm amazed that people aren't in the streets. I do think that’s a lot to do with it.
James Kennedy: Do you sense that changing though? Because I feel like the government can sense something coming, which is why they're making all these moves now to make protests illegal. It's almost like they're pre-empting a wave of resistance. What do you think?
Mark Chadwick: Well, they're aware of the situation they'created for themselves and they know and they're putting up their defences because they know. It's coming down. It will. It will eventually. People will take so much. I don't know how much they can take, to be honest. It strikes me that they can take a fucking awful lot.
James Kennedy: They certainly can.
Mark Chadwick: But they really can. And it's like, wow, how is this possible?
James Kennedy: Well, it's almost like we've reached the definition of madness and insanity, isn't it? If you were reluctant at this with a completely impartial set of eyes and assessed it on those terms, you would be only able to conclude that this is institutionalised insanity.
Mark Chadwick: It really is. It's beyond insane. Even like, you think, oh, God, there must be somebody up there pulling the strings and gets all this right. Obviously not. It puts an end to all conspiracy theories. It's like there's a conspiracy with craptocracy. They've done it. They've won. Well done. They've fucked the case of the entire country. Brilliant.
James Kennedy: Well done. They really have, man.
Mark Chadwick: At which point is that good for them? Is it good for anybody? They line in their pockets, obviously. But, essentially, that's really it. That's all it's ever been. That's what they've done. And they've won.
James Kennedy: Well, something that I've talked about quite a few times in the podcast with different guests, it's something I'm trying to figure out that always really just confuses me. I can't get my head around it. It's when you look at the elite, the 1% who are destroying this planet and everything on it. These are all highly educated, well-connected people who know what's going on just as well as anybody else does. They know that the role that they play in it, yet they continue to do the things that they do, which directly contribute to the end of life for the planet as we know it and everything on it. Including their grandkids. So I just can't understand the mentality of that. All I can decide is that they must be psychopaths.
Mark Chadwick: Well, yeah, that's the answer. And they breed psychopaths. And it's an environment. It's the heady world they live in. It's a very heady world, I'm sure. And it's like, yeah, we're just great. Aren't we the best at being fucking cunts? You know what I mean? Sorry, can you swear on this?
James Kennedy: It's too late now, Mark.
Mark Chadwick: I'm fucking right. And they raise their children to be cunts. I always used to think back in the day that their children would be tugging on daddy's sleeve going, Dad, Dad, aren't you worried about the environment? But I think they bred that out of them. You know, and the kids go, well, fuck this shit. People used to rebel against everyone. These days they go, “fuck, I'm having some of that”. “I want all the money too.” “Fuck it”. “It's broke what we got here. Let's fucking get rich”
James Kennedy: So you think that they know what's going on. But instead of doing something about it, they're just thinking, fuck it. There's no chance of saving us. So let's just grab everything for ourselves. Fuck everybody else. And this is half one big last greedy, decadent hurrah before it's game over.
Mark Chadwick: That would appear to be what seems to be going down. And I mean, I knew this was going to happen eventually. I thought it was going to be a much slower process. I didn't know how fucking quick it was going to be.
James Kennedy: Yeah, well, me neither. I mean, do you derive some hope, though, from the fact that this issue more than any other seems to be really mobilizing people to get up and out in big numbers than ever before? Because, you know, you're seeing the rise now of groups like Extinction Rebellion and Just Stop Oil.
Mark Chadwick: No. There's always a positive side. There is a positive side. There are people angry at it. There's people doing stuff. But it's not enough. That's my point. It's not enough. It's not that literal like they do in other countries. People are always saying that. England doesn't really have a massive history of taking to the streets. It doesn't. You know, and when it does take to the streets, it's generally beaten to fuck. Whereas in places like France, they take to the streets, it's quite a regular thing. In Germany they take the streets on a regular basis. I've seen them practice anarchists versus police every May the 1st. They go, OK, I'll have a jolly good riot. And everyone works out the moves. It's pretty weird. But, like, we don't do that. We don't have a history of that, of street action. But it has happened, and it can happen. I hope it does happen. I mean, I genuinely think that is the only thing's going to make a difference. It's literally people tearing shit down. They actually do.
James Kennedy: I totally agree with you, man. I mean, do you have any faith at all in the electoral system?
Mark Chadwick: No. No. Unfortunately, no. I mean, it had an opportunity. It had a way. Because the system itself, yeah, all right, whatever. There's proportional representation, maybe. But it just goes, plus, plus, plus, doesn't work. And also, with the media so heavily weighed towards whatever they want, then it kind of affects so many people that don't actually think about things and get told what to vote. They do it. They go, oh, right, yeah. And, you know, they're not going to vote Tory next time. A lot of people, because they were told not to do it. That's, you know, the argument is changing. You're going to vote for Keir Starmer now. That's kind of, that's happening. So that is what will happen. And it's not going to be a particularly massive radical change, unfortunately. It's not going to be, I don't know if you've heard about Jeremy Corbyn and all that, but essentially he was right about a lot of things. And it's like, okay, I wouldn't describe myself as a Corbynist. I wouldn't even describe myself as a socialist, particularly. I would say, I have no faith in the system. I don't.
James Kennedy: I agree with you, man.
Mark Chadwick: We get fucked every time. Every time we vote, some cunt gets in. With self-interest at heart.
James Kennedy: No matter who you vote for, the cunt wins.
Mark Chadwick: Exactly.
James Kennedy: I totally agree with you. We did a whole episode on proportion representation. We had make votes matter on explaining how it all works and everything like that. I just realised that like, the only choice we've got at this point is to vote for Labour if we want to get the Tories out. Because I'm a member of the Green Party and I've been for a long time. We've got to be realistic. If we want to get the Tories out, it's got to be Labour because we don't have any other realistic option.
Mark Chadwick: Well, if you're sensible, yeah. I mean, I prioritise it and I would like, I'll prioritise it. This is a situation we are in now. I would vote fucking Labour. Whoever's going to get a Tory out in my constituency, that's what I would do. I'm pragmatic about that. I don't care. I don't have a particular religion. I've never voted Tory and I never will. But I would vote for anybody else just to get rid of a Tory because they are scum of the earth.
James Kennedy: Oh, they really are, man. And like, they've done us all over good and proper this time. And if we all haven't learned a big fucking lesson from the last 12 years, then shame on us and we deserve everything we get. If we elect these guys again the next time after everything they've done to us this past decade, then fuck us. I don't care. I'll be past caring at that point and I'll just be working on my escape plan. But the problem is is that ultimately it won't make that much difference because the Labour Party are essentially Tory-lites. There's not that much fucking difference between them anymore. So I completely agree with you that we've got to do everything we can to get rid of them because they are cunts. But ultimately, the only way to affect actual change is to get out there and start tearing shit up.
Mark Chadwick: But a serious visionary, someone who's actually prepared to go, do you know what? This is daft. This is a really bad system. It's a corrupt system that needs to be changed. We need proportional representation. It doesn't matter what you do. The Tories will always essentially win because it's the way the country is built. It's a really old political system. We're geared towards getting them in power. Always has been. That's the way it works. It's just different versions of the Tory party. Tony Blair was a different version of the Tory party. That was all he ever was. It was very Tory-like and that's what we're going to get again. So it's like. I don't care what you call it. It doesn't matter. But that's the system that we're up against. With proportional representation, you get actually what people feel. And what they actually want. And that, it lowers them. It brings them down to where they should belong. Which is an equal partnership with other thought processes. Instead of let's just get rich and protect fucking ourselves. It's like, no, you're going to get rich but you have to deal with the Green Party now. We're going to tell you you can't fucking do that. Like they do in Germany or like they do in some parts of the world. It's a better system.
James Kennedy: Yeah, 100%. And I'm surprised that you don't describe yourself as a socialist then because if I was looking at the political spectrum of where to place you...
Mark Chadwick: Well, I'm definitely left the centre.
James Kennedy: No shit.
Mark Chadwick: All the way around. All the way around. I'm more of an anarchist really.
James Kennedy: Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So what role do you think that art can play then in advancing positive change?
Mark Chadwick: Well, obviously a big one because that's why they're so scared of it. That's why they're in the process of dismantling it as much as they possibly can. Very quickly and again, subtly, not subtle at all. Literally, like, right, we're not getting rid of that. Oh, right, during the pandemic, all become ballerinas. All ballerinas become shit. That's, ignoring the fact that the arts make them so much money, et cetera, et cetera, but they know that every artist given a fucking opportunity to speak will speak against them and they don't like that. So consequently, the arts are important because that's what we do.
James Kennedy: Love it. Yeah, and art is a great communicator as well, isn't it? You know, art can get straight to the point where it's easy to bamboozle people with statistics and narratives and spin, whereas art can just punch you straight in the gut or hit you straight in the heart, can't it?
Mark Chadwick: You can cut through a lot of the bullshit and can get straight to the emotion, get straight to actually, you know, the boiling pot, the heart.
James Kennedy: Yeah, 100%. I feel like the levellers are a case in point because, you know, I don't think your guys' longevity and stay in power is just down to the awesome songs and the relentless work ethic, but I think the fact that you guys have always been so honest and outspoken and consistent with that, that it's given you guys a sort of trust with your audience and an extra element that they relate to and connect with you guys on that's more real, I think, than, hey, here's a band with a cool song.
Mark Chadwick: It's definitely a component in our longevity, and the fact that we never got away is because of that because we have never been, you know, asked, we are what we think. Right. You know, that's, we are that. And, you know, it's been lots of, it's complicated. It's not easy doing it, but generally speaking, we have a thing about most things that we do. You know, sometimes we fuck up, but not very often. And we go, like Jesus, if we're going to do this, we have to think about that. You know, really weigh out and go, okay, this can be perceived as bad and we don't do it. You know, even if it's like, that's a good career move, we only have to eat. Do you know what I mean? When we do that, that's bad. You know, we're aware of like, when sucking Satan's cock is a break, when it's available, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, I don't want to go near that. That's bad.
James Kennedy: Avoid the cock.
Mark Chadwick: And sometimes we've done stuff and we haven't been aware of it and it’s like “Oh, fuck. No”.
James Kennedy: Yeah. So you just stay true to your values and that's worked for you.
Mark Chadwick: Exactly. And I'm pious in how we go in about our business, really. We just make it as much fun as we possibly can, but also just like keeping it, keeping it real. Keeping it real. And for us, it's basic common sense. Everything is common sense. Everything we do, from our festival to our own studio, our own everything, our own record label, our own party, but everything is common sense and it's like, it's that that does the least harm.
James Kennedy: Well, I want to ask you about your label and your model for releasing records and stuff in it, but I wanted to just sort of like bridge the gap between the politics and the music stuff. This doesn't apply to you because your situation is very different, but what do you say to those people who see a conflict in bands espousing socialistic principles whilst also being part of the capitalistic evil machinery of the record business? Do you see a conflict there or is it just, what other choices do we have?
Mark Chadwick: No, no, it's just the limit, it's what works, that's it. You can't just go around, yeah, we've got our own records, don't we? So, yeah, you're involved, you're just involved, that's the world you live in. Obviously, we do what we do, but we don't, like I said, we don't get into bed with the wrong people. The wrong people try and get in bed with us.
James Kennedy: Oh, I bet.
Mark Chadwick: And like, on both parts, I literally got away from that, like corporate, because we're always on independent labels, but then our independent label got bought by a major label. And we made sure we got dropped straight away. Because we weren't prepared to be ruled by Bugs Bunny, it wasn't really what we wanted.
James Kennedy: Love it. So, what is your model now then? Because you're completely independent now with your own record label on the fiddle recordings. What's your situation? Are you doing everything in-house or are you licensing and outsourcing?
Mark Chadwick: No, we do a bit of licensing abroad, but yeah, everything's in-house really. Now, the record company business has changed so much. There's a lot of individual talent you just hire as you need. Instead of going to, you know, someone who's probably worked for years at various different record labels and now working from home doing the same stuff. But cutting out the middleman. You know? So, that's the way we do it now and that's the way everyone's doing it really, a lot. I mean, it still makes a record label, don't get me wrong, but they're doing better than ever. Extraordinarily. Which is, I don't know if I was earning any money but those guys, they're making loads of money. Oh, how are they doing that? They've been fucking dodging deals on Spotify. That's how they're doing it. And everyone else gets left out in the cold and that's just the way it is. But, you know, but it's been a growing thing. We started doing this around 2000, 2005 we started to separate ourselves from as much of the business as possible. And we're lucky enough to have a fan base that stuck with us throughout that time because they said we were never a fashion bands of any kind, weren't that part of a brit pop or fucking baggy whatever, the Levellers were always just ‘those cunts’, that's all we ever were and that's fine. Brilliant whatever
James Kennedy: You see that so often though don't you like bands who are just doing their thing and staying true to who they are and not giving a fuck about how it fits in with the broader ecosystem you see that happens so often that they're the bands that are still fucking kicking it 30 years later
Mark Chadwick: Exactly. Always. You know, and it is those bands, the Fugazi’s, it's those bands and they just keep going and don't stop because they do their own fucking shit and they do their own way and they create their own power and it's brilliant. Beastie Boys. Genius. Same deal. They do what we do on a bigger scale.
James Kennedy: So how are you finding the independent lifestyle then compared to the years when you were with a label doing things, I mean I'm guessing like the band has got so many other hats that it's got to juggle now as well as doing what you've always done
Mark Chadwick: Well you don't have as much money to throw around as they did back then but they don't anyway, especially for rock and roll they don't really throw money at rock and roll, I think the Arctic Monkeys is the last big band come out when they there's everything else really that's lasted, there isn't is there, so let's face it, they last about 5 minutes and they're gone and that depends on the faith of the record company to keep backing them up until unless they do something independent for themselves, but I just couldn't live like that, I couldn't live at the whim of another person. We lived like that for about 12 years and it was like, it's long enough at the whim, when I was on a tour bus with the band who was there I won't name the band but when they suddenly got dropped by their label they're in the middle of a sellout tour, just released a record, all good, some accountant in Japan took a look down and the tour manager comes onto the tour bus says guys you've just been dropped by a label. And they were fucking partying at that moment and it was like “oh it's fucking over” and they're a famous band and I was like okay that ain't gonna happen to me
James Kennedy: No fuck that man jesus christ I mean it's well you've done it both ways now, with success in both, but what just to play devil's advocate what are the benefits that you experienced of being with a label, are there any
Mark Chadwick: Yeah there are there really are, I mean to be honest, I knew some record company guys who did a Manic Street Preachers record Gold Against the Soul and said it would be easier to staple a 50 pound note to every record we sold, that's how much we spent to do it, and that's how it works, they throw money at the situation until it sticks, they did it with us, put money at it and it works, advertising everywhere, getting a record on the radio, getting all that store stuff, that's where that comes from, that's for the million bucks and it takes a million bucks to break a band and it just does, that's a fact and then so if you haven't got that it's so hard for newer acts, I don't how they do it via the internet, still it's going to win a fairly niche unless you get one of those unique sort of viral situations or suddenly they're the right band or the right artist for the time then they might get lucky and there's a lot of people that do quite well doing this via without the labels as such, but it's hard work
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James Kennedy: Well for someone like me who's been releasing albums and I don't know any other way to do it, I've only ever done it independently, I make all my music and I make all my records myself, finance myself, release them myself, promote them myself, distribute them myself, I've never had a deal as such so I don't know what that experience is like so I've had to learn the long way and the hard way and made a lot of mistakes and still am, but the independent model just seems to make sense to me, because even people I know who are on major labels they've got nothing good to say about it, they've got no money and certainly through the lockdown and stuff when everyone else was skint and considering getting day jobs and getting jobs I was doing okay not because I'm making loads of money but just because I'm independent so anything that comes in was coming into me because I'm the label as well as the artist and the writer and the performer and everything so it kind of makes sense to me and I think it is cool that we now have that option to go independent because before if you couldn't get a deal you were fucked it was game over so I think it is very empowering that people have got the ability to keep on trucking now with or without a label you can just do it yourself, it goes back to the whole DIY punk ethos
Mark Chadwick: That's it, that is what happened, it became DIY and we were lucky to catch that wave and did it right at the right time for us, this makes sense to us, and so the digital revolution aided our career to a degree because it enabled us to continue without if we were to drop all the labels without the digital world we probably would have really because you'd have to get to print media and all that and that costs money and that wouldn't, but this is all free, so largely that really helps, running websites and apps and doing things directly, Facebook blah blah
James Kennedy: Well that's the problem, I mean it is a shame that like I said earlier about the having to be dependent on the big bad label machinery, well now despite everything we've just said we are dependent completely on the big bad tech industry which i'm not sure which is worse
Mark Chadwick: Well I mean I think there’s still word of mouth, I think that still has it there, there is a strange, the 12 monkey effect where somebody says suddenly they know about this band or this artist, you don't know why, but you know how that happens and that's what happens to the Levellers, it was the strangest thing, it was like there we were plodding away next thing you know everybody knew the fuck we were and that's just weird, 12 monkey boing!
James Kennedy: Yeah, well I mean essentially speaking of word of mouth, in that sense everything has changed but nothing has changed really
Mark Chadwick: Indeed, it's the medium of it it's changed, it's probably more like the 50s now I'd say, than the 60s and 70s and 80s where it was like big bucks and where you identified with your music, you were your music, that's what you were, that was your gang, you were a massive Smiths fan and that was you, or you were a goth that was you or you're a psychobilly and that was you, you're metal or fucking two-tone and that was that, that was the world I grew up in, I thought that would never go, but now that's not the case, it's gone, it's gone this last thing, that's quite cultured and the young people really fucking understand it to be honest, and that's the way it was and you beat everybody else up
James Kennedy: That's very true, that sense of identity, that absolute sense of identity that you define yourself with a fucking band, I miss those days, but it was a simpler world, there was less content to consume and make sense of, these days you're not going to get that because there's just too much fucking stuff man to make sense of, you can't get really really into anything anymore you're just a little bit into lots of stuff, which is one of the many downsides I think to the new model, but I think it's a little bit despite all of the great things we've just said about it, but if you were going to put your cards down having seen both sides would you say that it's better now worse in many ways or is it just different
Mark Chadwick: It's just different, different set of problems, different set of opportunities
James Kennedy: And where do you stand on the streaming medium, Spotify and the ilk
Mark Chadwick: I can see it and say that's it, it's just a fact, there's nothing there, the thing is people want to buy stuff, still buy it, I buy it, they won't even open it, I'll still stream, I'll stream while they're listening to it or they don't buy it, so when there's a lot of revenue being lost it's just shit for musicians, it's fucking dreadful compared to what it was, it's definitely it's bad, it's bad, unless they're earning money from live or from merchandise they earn it
James Kennedy: No you're right, and the touring is hard as well, people glamorize that as being such a great revenue stream, but if you don't have financial backing you can't do it, if you're a small band at the transit van level just doing a little stint around the UK it's fucking expensive, you're in a hole before you leave
Mark Chadwick: You talk to bands and say how much did you get paid and it’s like well that’s your diesel
James Kennedy: You're talking literally 50 bucks or whatever just to help you get to the next gig, there's nothing to be said about food, a bed to sleep on or anything like that, it's fucking brutal man, and that's why I haven't gigged in so long, pandemic aside and some other things, but I haven't toured or done shows now in fucking years, about four years because I'm looking at the terrain and I'm just thinking fuck that, why would I bother, it's just too fucked right now, I'm just gonna sit the pit stop and wait it out
Mark Chadwick: No I get that, I totally get it, and I really admire any band out there knocking on the doors doing the work because I know they ain't doing it for the luxury, they're doing it for their life
James Kennedy: There ain't no luxury that's for sure
Mark Chadwick: Not even at my level there ain’t no luxury, relatively speaking I'd say it's all right, but yeah it's not sleeping in the transit van so often
James Kennedy: Right okay, well I think guys that came up the way you guys did, you've been working hard now for several decades, I suppose you've got that work ethic, which sadly is lacking in a lot of bands, certainly some of the ones that I know, because you've got to do that, because with the industry being what it is and what it's always been, until you can push through to that part of the threshold where you do start earning a bit of money, until then you've got to do it at a loss essentially, so if that means sleeping in the van that's what you've got to do
Mark Chadwick: Absolutely, just what people do, friends of mine, that's what they're doing right now, on the road sleeping in a van
James Kennedy: My friend's exactly the same man, I honestly can't see any other way that it's possible to keep doing your thing at the moment without doing that, and I think it's good to have these conversations, these honest conversations about this stuff, because too many people who are fans of bands have this kind of assumption that it's all partying and rock and roll and champagne and cocaine and groupies and private planes
Mark Chadwick: Those days are over
James Kennedy: So would you say then that the independent model is working out better for you, I mean obviously you've got to incur now all the extra costs that the label was previously paying
Mark Chadwick: Well the cost is the same cost that everyone's having to bear, in energy and all that, diesel etc, Brexit genuinely not helping anything at all in fact really bad, and so things like that are bad in that respect, costs are high, wages are high, and you can't really take the piss ticket wise too much because people have only x amount of money because to go to a gig, for people it's babysitters, it's traveling, it's accommodation, it's a fucking big wad of cash to go to a gig these days, it's not straightforward so you have to be really careful, but what the Levellers are good at is playing everywhere, so people don't generally have to travel that far to see us, if they've got patience we'll be in their town at some point within a two-year period
James Kennedy: Yeah man you guys get around, you're playing acoustic shows all through March as well, I wanted to ask you how do you balance, I'm assuming your life has probably grown and evolved to fit around the massive part of your life that the band takes up, but now at this stage in your life how do you balance having a personal life with the relentlessness of what you do in the band
Mark Chadwick: It's not as relentless as all that these days to be honest, but yes I mean it's a lot of downtime, a lot of home time, so that is quite hard, and over the years it's been a challenge, it's a challenge, I don't deny it, it's a real challenge because it's a very different world to rocking out on the stage and then going home and put the bins out, you have to be a bit of a Wurzel Gummidge, I'm not great at Wurzel Gummidge, to my detriment
James Kennedy: Right well you mentioned Brexit back then, we've done a few episodes on here about that, we had Kevin Brennan the MP on talking about it and a couple of other guys from a campaign that I'm involved with called Carry on Touring, talking specifically about how Brexit is affecting crews and bands and the entertainment business, how has it affected you guys
Mark Chadwick: It's pretty bad, it's expensive, it's made almost unviable, not quite, but going in it's like okay we've got a small profit, now it's like we're just doing it to play to the fans and not lose money, that's shit, that's a bit weird, a bit fucking weird, but we're doing it, we're getting paid essentially, and you can be there and suddenly someone's got to leave the tour because they've been on tour in Europe with another band and they've got a 90-day cycle so they've got to go, we say where are we going, so I've got to go, that's all right I've arranged someone else to come in my place, but I've got to go, things like that, unforeseen things
James Kennedy: And that applies to you guys as well, the 90-day rule
Mark Chadwick: Yeah except we never play 90 days in Europe
James Kennedy: But it's terminal for crew members because they hop from one tour to the next now they know exactly
Mark Chadwick: It's really bad news for them, it's like you run out in 90 days and that's within a year, that's it, you don't go back, what have they done to deserve that, nothing, in an industry that was making the country most money out of any other industry, apart from the actual city itself, that's great, that's brilliant, let's shoot ourselves in the front fucking foot there, let's do that shall we, and all the companies, all the British companies used to work in Europe now they don't go there anymore, PA's, buses, lights, production companies, all the best skills, all the best people in this country can't go anymore so they have to hire everything over there which is a bit shit because their gear's not as good, it's going to be good now because they bought all ours
James Kennedy: Well I've heard that because of lockdown and everything there was like this surge of touring activity as soon as the gates were open again which has just meant that the cost of getting a bus and crew and stuff like that doubled or trebled
Mark Chadwick: It really did, this is hopefully we can calm down a bit now, but it was like fuck this is all virtually unfeasible, we’re lucky to survive but a lot of bands can't do this
James Kennedy: Many people like myself who were just sitting in the pit stop now trying to figure out is this going to change or how can I make this doable
Mark Chadwick: It doesn't matter, it's done, but it's bad and it needs to be reversed immediately
James Kennedy: 100 percent man, what is the Levellers' approach to all of this then, are you guys just going to continue doing what you've always done and what has always worked for you which is just to keep on trucking doing your thing and not getting drawn into the surrounding bullshit
Mark Chadwick: We have to remain consistent, that's what people rely on, they rely on the voice, what we say and how we are as a beacon hopefully for people who go “yeah well we’ve still got the Levellers, they’re alright, they're doing their thing”, always producing new material, new stuff, always trying to keep it fresh, we're always trying to be inspired and be inspiring
James Kennedy: Beautiful and what would you say then to those bands who are out there who aren't the Levellers yet, who are currently hammering the toilet circuit in a transit van trying to navigate this fucked up terrain of making no money, sleeping in the driver's seat, eating pot noodles, dealing with the fact that everyone is broke and venues are closing down and all the shit that a young musician is faced with now when they start on the circuit, what advice after all of your experience could you give to those bands
Mark Chadwick: I don't know, I honestly don't know, I really don't know, I think tenacity plays out in the end a lot of the time, if you're good it will work, I don't know it's fucking hard though, I don't envy them, I really don't know, it's fucking tough, I think the music business has never been tough at the start if you're playing directly commercial music where you might have some money thrown at you or on a talent show, that world, that separate universe now, that music business is completely separate from what I would call real music, which is a bit divisive but it's the truth, there's real music, it could be all kinds of real music whether you're a drill artist or a folk artist, it doesn't matter, you're playing real music, you're doing something real from your heart and you're driven to do it, it's a must for you, you can't stop doing it because it's what you are, that side of thing, that's the bit that's most under pressure, but people can do it, people are doing it every day, people are cracking it
James Kennedy: Or get a fucking job! I think anybody listening to these conversations, I ask every time we have a musical guest and I'm fascinated and everyone's like fuck it no it's just not good, I think anyone that listens to my podcast regular for the music episodes it's like jesus man that sounds fucking rough I don't think I'll bother
Mark Chadwick: Well it's not what it was, it isn't, it just simply isn't, there was, it felt impossible when we started out to be honest, a lot of bands chasing record deals at the time, and we just didn't fit anything, we weren't like the Stone Roses so we didn't fit that vibe, we weren't like any other things that were going at the time, with a violin in the band it's like where's that shit, are you folk, not really, you'd be quite punky, we don't fit on our label, so we had to find quite broad labels, broad independent labels, first one was French
James Kennedy: Of course
Mark Chadwick: And they were like great we've got a rock and roll band, we've got a British rock band, they didn't really know what kind of music we were but they liked it and that was great, and then we moved to another one that had a similar approach but it was in the UK, we don't have a genre as such so you fit right in here, we'll support you because we like your songs and your attitude, and at that point we had built our own world up anyway without the first record, they didn't do very much to help us, but the support we built, we built it all ourselves without them throwing any money because they didn't have any at us, so we became a viable concept for the slightly larger independent record label in the UK, and that lasted for a good 10 years, and that was good, we had a good relationship with them because you tell them to fuck off and they take it
James Kennedy: And I suppose that sort of put you in good stead then for when you went independent, you had that kind of bedrock of support there and stuff that you'd built
Mark Chadwick: Exactly, we started out, we were making our own cassettes, printing our own T-shirts, so we were on our own tour bus and we did everything ourselves from the very beginning anyway, so it's kind of like a brief interlude with the record companies really, it was only 10 years, 12 years out of our 35 years that we were ever with a record company
James Kennedy: Yeah, I hadn't considered that, actually, if you look at your career as a whole, the time that you were actually with a label as a band is relatively small compared to being independent, and that's why I was sort of fascinated to talk to you because you've seen such a broad change now, not just within the music industry, but within society as well, and you're still fucking here
Mark Chadwick: Yeah, absolutely, but like I said, it's because we've made the right decisions at the right time, this is not cool, let's do a festival, when festivals, there's billions of festivals now, but 2001 when we started out to do our own festival, there weren't, there was a big one and a few quite niche ones, and quite a lot of free festivals and dance festivals, but there was no one doing sort of a paid-for, but vibe-wise non-commercial festival, with a massive collection of artists and talent of different kinds, comedy, theatre, all kinds of music, dance, reggae, folk, punk, indie, whatever, we put it all on, and the only provider that I've ever played was Good Life, that's the principle, and no sponsorship, none at all, no money from anybody
James Kennedy: Wow, none, I didn't know that
Mark Chadwick: Never happened, it's our 20th year this year, and it always sounds like that, and we don't have to compromise
James Kennedy: So how do you finance that then?
Mark Chadwick: Tickets, advanced sales, and we go advertising, that's why people go, oh Beautiful Days, they go, oh can't have heard of it, word of mouth, you won't see a post for it because we don't need to advertise it, well, not yet anyways, but that day has yet to arise, but there you go, that's kind of the vibe of it, and that's how we've done it, it's all generated from when people actually attempt to
James Kennedy: Amazing, and that's the way it should be, and it's very similar, I suppose, to what is very popular now, the crowdfunding model, I've financed most of my albums through crowdfunding, where people buy the album in advance, which helps you then have the money to make the fucking thing
Mark Chadwick: Exactly, that's the basic principle
James Kennedy: That's fucking awesome, man, well look, I promised I wouldn't keep you for too much longer, so before we wrap up, we've got to let everybody know what's happening with the Levellers, what's coming up, what can they look forward to, and what's going on
Mark Chadwick: Well we're releasing a partner record tour, we released one about four or five years ago called We The Collective, it's an acoustic reimagining of some of the songs, some new material, for basically just really fun, for shits and giggles really, and it's awesome, and it's a really intense musical approach, it's very focused, and it really brings the words out
James Kennedy: Right, yeah, cool
Mark Chadwick: And it works in theatres, sat-down theatres, so we're doing a sat-down theatre tour, so we've done another record to go along with that, so we'done the sister record to We The Collective, called Together All The Way, and it's just us with other musicians, some reimagining, some new material, and yeah, just vibes
James Kennedy: Good vibes, wicked man, and you'got the tour you've got coming through March, what's happening for the rest of the year, live-wise
Mark Chadwick: We've got festival dates, we've got some Beautiful Days out, where we do just like essentially what Beautiful Days is, but just in one day, in a place like Bristol and whatnot, so there are a few places like that, some of them confirmed, some of them not, and our festival, and some other festivals, here and there and everywhere
James Kennedy: It's going to be a fun year, man, I'm envious
Mark Chadwick: Yeah, no, it's good, I can't complain
James Kennedy: Do you think this train is ever going to stop, or is this thing just going to keep on going until the fucking wheels fall off
Mark Chadwick: The latter, definitely, what's the point of stopping, it's good, when I'm not touring I do stuff on my own as well, I like going out, doing it, it's my happy place
Key Points:
Mark Chadwick and the host begin with politics, agreeing that the current global and UK situation is unprecedented, with Chadwick calling it worse than the Thatcher era and the winter of discontent.
Chadwick argues that people today feel powerless, merely clicking "like" on social media instead of taking to the streets as they did in the 1980s.
He expresses no faith in the electoral system, calling for proportional representation and describing the Labour Party as essentially "Tory-lites."
Chadwick believes the only way to achieve real change is direct action, saying people should "start tearing some shit down."
The conversation turns to art and music, with Chadwick arguing that the arts are vital because artists speak against those in power, and that the Levellers have survived by staying true to their values.
The Levellers operate independently through their own label, On the Fiddle Recordings, and their own festival, Beautiful Days, which is entirely fan-funded and sponsorship-free.
The episode closes with details of the Levellers' acoustic theatre tour and festival dates, plus the host urging listeners to subscribe and take action.
Summary:
This episode of the James Kennedy podcast features a wide-ranging conversation with Mark Chadwick, lead singer and songwriter of the Levellers, a band that has been blending genres and socio-political commentary since 1988. The discussion begins with politics, as Chadwick describes the current state of the UK and the world as worse than anything he has witnessed, including the Thatcher era and the 1990s Criminal Justice Act. He criticizes the public's passivity, noting that people now merely click "like" on social media rather than protesting in the streets. Chadwick expresses no faith in the electoral system, calling for proportional representation, and argues that the only path to real change is direct action.
The conversation then moves to art and the music industry. Chadwick explains that the arts are feared by those in power because artists speak out, and that the Levellers have maintained their longevity by staying true to their principles and never compromising. He details the band's independent model, including their own label and their fan-funded, sponsorship-free Beautiful Days festival. The episode concludes with tour announcements and the host's closing remarks urging listeners to subscribe and to channel their frustration into action.
The James Kennedy Podcast is a Society and Culture podcast hosted by musician and author, James Kennedy. Exploring the big questions around health, social issues, the arts, politics, mental health, the human condition and how to navigate this thing called life through casual conversations with scientists, activists, rock stars, philosophers and academics. Please subscribe, leave a rating and support the show.
