MARINA PURKISS - A VISION OF A BETTER BRITAIN
James Kennedy interviews political commentator and co-host of The Trawl podcast, Marina Purkiss. They discuss the state of UK politics in 2023, covering topics such as government corruption, media influence, Boris Johnson's legacy, Labour's stance under Keir Starmer, and Marina’s vision for a better Britain.
James Kennedy: Marina, thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. I'm super excited for what's probably going to unfold during the conversation today. How are you doing?
Marina Purkiss: That was such a lovely intro. I'm all the better for it. Thank you, James.
James Kennedy: No problem at all. And no word of a lie neither. Before we jump in then, just a little check-in. How are you personally? What's been going on with you? How are you doing?
Marina Purkiss: Oh God, it's actually really dull. My personal life is very dull. I am on maternity leave at the moment with my second baby. I've got an eight-month-old and a two-and-a-half-year-old. I go back to work full-time in September. So I'm basically just using this time in between nappy changes and stuff to try and hold the government to account, as you do.
James Kennedy: As you do. Well, as I said before we started recording here, I have never had so many excited and positive comments as when I posted online that you were coming on the show. So there's clearly a lot of love for you out there and what you do. And I think that is mirrored in your social media presence, which is absolutely fucking insane. You're crushing it.
Marina Purkiss: It's actually getting to a little bit of a scary place now because I have to really think before I hit the send button. I used to be quite happy having a few drinks, crafting something, and hitting the tweet button. Actually, I can't do that now because I get pile-ons quite frequently, especially given Elon Musk's new algorithm. Because now we're fed stuff that provokes us, and the bit that says "For You" feed is pretty provocative stuff. I get a lot of bellends there that sort of trigger me if I look at that particular feed. Another thing actually to say is that today is a good day because we hit one million downloads for our podcast.
James Kennedy: I saw. Congratulations. That's amazing.
Marina Purkiss: Thank you. I can't believe it. It's something Gemma and I do out of our bedrooms, out of our home office, and we're so chuffed with it.
James Kennedy: Well, it's an awesome podcast. I love listening to it because for me, it's like political therapy. It's like political therapy because you can often feel a little bit like, "Is it just me? Am I the only fucking sane person? Am I losing my mind here?" Then you listen to that and it's like, "Oh no, it's not just me. Cool. I feel so much better now." It's like a relief.
Marina Purkiss: You've got things like The Rest is Politics for the real insight, you've got The News Agents for the analysis, and you've got us for a bit of that. It's like chatting with your mates. It's that sort of chat. It makes you feel sane and you're not alone. And also to have a bit of a laugh, because the state of the country, you have to sort of laugh at it, otherwise you could cry.
James Kennedy: Oh, 100%. That actually segues perfectly into my first question that I wanted to ask you today. It's quite a biggie, but I'm hoping that it's going to be a launching pad for the rest of the conversation. It's this: if you were to give a synopsis of where we are at in 2023, in this independent, noble, prosperous, free nation that we find ourselves in, to someone who didn't know anything at all about our political or social situation, how would you describe it? What would you tell them? What would you tell them about where we're at in Britain in 2023?
Marina Purkiss: Gosh, broken. We are in the position now where I think we have isolated ourselves so much, we have made a laughingstock of ourselves. As a result of the government and its very sympathetic press, we are more divided than we've ever been. As a result of 13 years of consecutive governments and austerity, we are poorer than we'var been. I just can't see, at the moment, I don't know how we get better. That's the real sadness. That's the real sad state of affairs because even if you look at the opposition—which by the way, I would lend my vote to them because I'm desperate to get the Tories out—because of the dominance of media in this country, I think the two parties that we've got in this two-party state means they are so close to each other now that if we really want change (and God, we are desperate for it now because of those 13 years), I feel like we're not going to get a great deal of it. So it feels like we're in a bit of a sorry state of affairs, a bit of a pickle. Don't you think, James?
James Kennedy: 100%, beautifully put. But let me just tell you, Marina, you don't have to be polite or diplomatic on my show. You can tell us what you really think!
Marina Purkiss: Okay. I can also say I think the people in charge—I have never known a more vile bunch of people, and I don't really hate people—but I hate this bunch of Tory governments and I hate the enablers. I do. I hate the people that put them into this position and peddle their bullshit. In fact, I drew on something that I tweeted about quite a lot yesterday because Adam Bienkov, who is the political editor at Byline Times, wrote this brilliant article about Johnson and the rise and fall. Did you know that back in—ages ago—Johnson wrote an article where he talks about how to be successful in politics? One of the things he talks about, he actually said to be successful, you have to surround yourself with stooges who are disciplined and deluded, and they so want to believe in their relationship with the leader that they will basically shut their eyes to the crap, to the nonsense, to the lies. Has he ever been more candid? Has he ever been more accurate or bang on the money? That is exactly what he did with his government, because he didn't hire for talent, did he, James? He hired people who are complete sycophants—loyal, blindly loyal—who saw him as their meal ticket, who were able to ride on his coattails. That's exactly what he did. When I go through my Twitter feed now, God, the dross, people like Niall Gardiner for example, all these people, it's like: guys, you are the stooges. You are the disciplined, deluded stooges, and you can't even see it.
James Kennedy: 100%. I'm sure you've seen the WhatsApp messages as well, right?
Marina Purkiss: I haven't, no.
James Kennedy: You've got to be—
Marina Purkiss: When did these come out? Honestly, I feel like I haven't seen things for 10 minutes and something else happens.
James Kennedy: You've got to see these things. It's exactly what you're talking about. The sycophancy is fucking hilarious. You've got Dominic Cummings calling him "dude" and "big boss." Nadine Dorries is on there saying, "Oh, I love it how cheeky you get when you've had a drink," and all that sort of stuff. God, it's terrible.
Marina Purkiss: Dorries as well, by the way, you've got to feel for Dorries, haven't you? She got shafted. She got absolutely shoved. All of that sucking, all of that being wheeled out to defend the indefensible, talking shit and flicking her hair in that defiant manner—all for what, Dorries? To stand down for Mid Bedfordshire. On top of that, she has been culled from his list of honours.
James Kennedy: Beautiful justice. That's what you get. That's karma. That's karma.
Marina Purkiss: About bloody time. Karma's been like, what? Has she been on retirement or what?
James Kennedy: Well, she's certainly slacking. She's certainly slacking. I am hopeful that karma is going to deliver a beautiful, fucking brutal blow to every single member of this government at some point. I'm still waiting for it, though.
Marina Purkiss: I hope so. But then you see Nicola Sturgeon got arrested, obviously, and then she's been released pending further investigation. I just want to see some arrests starting with Michelle Mone. Arrest her, please. This is what I need to see. This is the justice that I think so many of us are desperate for. Because at the moment, that VIP bloody lane and the billions of taxpayers' money, not a single head has been made to roll as a result. That is unbelievable.
James Kennedy: Unforgivable. I think the point you make is a serious one, because they are literal criminals, these people. I mean, they are all guilty of being an accessory to a criminal system that is killing people. People are starving on the streets. I know we're venting here, but when you said there should be arrests—and I know you mean that, and I totally agree with you—these are criminals, and these are crimes against society and crimes against democracy as well. These guys are mincing around in their private jets and their yachts and rubbing shoulders with oligarchs and people who have got their billions stuffed away in tax havens who don't pay tax whilst the rest of us are having to choose between heating and eating. It's fucking brutal, and it is a crime. You're exactly right, and I 100% agree with you when you say that.
Marina Purkiss: James, no, hang on. That's for the little people. The breaking of laws, the illegal stuff—that's for the little people. The people in government, they're never found to be doing illegal things. They are found to be doing unlawful things. Do you see the difference there? It's very clever. It's done on purpose, because if you or I commit a massive fraud or do something like that, it's found to be illegal. But if you do it in positions of power, like some of the VIP lane stuff, it was found in the High Court to be unlawful. The reason it's unlawful and not illegal is because for it to be illegal, Parliament has to pass a law to make it illegal. Do you think they're going to do that? Do you think they're going to pass the law to make the stuff they do illegal? No. The whole thing is rigged.
James Kennedy: It totally is. But how do we get to this point? Because we don't live in a literal dictatorship yet. People did vote for this shit. These people in this government, if you can call them that, they're not representative of anybody I've ever met in life—and I've been around a while. I know people from all sides of the social and political spectrum, and I don't know who these fuckers represent. So why do people vote for this? Why do we keep putting ourselves in the fucking flames?
Marina Purkiss: A few things. The fact that a massive chunk of our press is basically dominated by the Conservatives or in the pockets of the Conservatives, or vice versa. Even the "lefty" BBC, with its director-general and all the rest of it, has all the big right-wing or Conservatives in charge. The message, especially for things like Brexit—we never got the real story around Brexit. Also, the other thing is the lying that's allowed in politics. Given the lies that were spouted by the Leave side and spouted continuously to this day every single day by the Conservative Party, the reason that happens is because we have a completely unpoliced, wild west when it comes to our politics. Lying is not just without consequence; it's actually rewarded, because people believe the lies, like we saw with Brexit, like we saw with the "oven-ready deal," and all the other lies that they say. There is absolutely no consequence.
We've got to a really bad point now where Suella Braverman last week stood up in the House of Commons and said that approvals for the first round of migrants—the processing—the number had gone down by 17,000. This is complete horseshit. In fact, Yvette Cooper stood up and corrected her: the number has actually gone up. The Deputy Speaker of the House actually invited her to correct herself and correct the record, and Suella Braverman shook her head and refused. Mental. That's where we are now. Because you can lie outside of Parliament freely (which they do—you can put a big lie on a bus), but you can also lie in Parliament now. Because of the flaccidity of the speakers and the fact that our political system is completely exposed and vulnerable when it comes to bad actors, they can just do anything they want now.
James Kennedy: It's weird, isn't it? This era that we're living in now whereby the lying is so overt and out there that we're almost desensitised to it. It's almost like it's just become normal and perfectly acceptable.
Marina Purkiss: It's Trumpian. Even what Johnson's doing now, where he's trying to discredit the Privileges Committee, is Trumpian. It's like Trump trying to discredit the vote. Jesus, the lies that are being peddled out by once-respectable papers or people who consider themselves to be respectable journalists saying that it's a witch hunt, blaming the "blob," blaming the globalists. Just blame the globalists! It's so bloody ridiculous.
The fundamentals are that the Privileges Committee did not oust Johnson. The only person that ousted Johnson was Johnson. Because that Privileges Committee, yes, they found him guilty of misleading Parliament and recommended a suspension, but it was only a recommendation. They can't force him out. That recommendation then had to go to Parliament for Parliament to vote on. Parliament has a Tory majority, so Johnson faced that and could have actually come out unscathed, but he didn't. Even if Parliament had agreed and voted to implement the recommendation that would have triggered a recall petition in his constituency of Uxbridge and South Ruislip, it would have been down to his constituents to oust him. He literally had two more steps before he was ousted, and he didn't face them because he's such a big old coward. He didn't even choose to face those. He's just given it: "Oh, I was forced out. Blame the blob. Blame the witch hunt." Absolute bloody nonsense.
James Kennedy: I don't think Johnson cares or ever cared really about the politics of being a Prime Minister. I think he just wanted to have that on his CV. I think he wanted to have the picture on the wall. I don't think he actually has any fervent, passionate ideology. I think he's happy with whatever just to get the gig and then move on to the next.
You mentioned Trumpisms, and I think that is exactly where all this started: the era of the strongman. This post-truth era that we live in now where words can mean whatever you decide they mean. You've got these posturing rich motherfuckers who are just swinging in and out of politics. They have their moment in the sun, they get it on the CV and portfolio, and then they're out the door again because they don't really care, as none of it affects them. That's the vibe I get with this lot. It's the same with Sunak. The guy's worth so much fucking money, he clearly isn't doing this for the money. So why is he doing it? I think it's just for the ego of it all. No pun intended, but it's almost like a Trump card. Politics is a little playground for the super-rich to mess about with for a bit.
Marina Purkiss: For Johnson, I think it's a power-for-power's-sake thing. I also think the longer you're in office, the more sway you've got once you leave it to earn shedloads of money. I don't think he's done, by the way. I think from what we're learning here, he's going to use this opportunity now to do as much damage as he can to Sunak and even the Conservative Party. Respectable Conservatives like Tobias Ellwood are saying as much. Once the Tories lose the next election, he'll start to position himself as the comeback kid and the person that will get them back into power again. I think that's going to be his ploy.
The reason these people get into politics—I came to this so late; I was stupid and naive enough to think that people go into politics because they genuinely wanted to change things for the better, or at least in their minds for the better—it's nothing to do with that. It's to do with getting into power so they can raid the public purse and install their friends and cronies in positions so they can all benefit each other. They can shape policy to benefit themselves and their ilk.
That explains to you why, for example, the energy bosses who line the coffers of the Tory party are absolutely creaming it when it comes to these windfall profits, and the windfall tax is not even worth the paper it's written on. There are so many loopholes that basically, if the energy companies reinvest, they don't have to pay that windfall tax. Guess what they're going to do? They're going to reinvest. All that means is more drilling.
James Kennedy: Wonderful. How convenient. Would you describe this as a kleptocracy?
Marina Purkiss: Completely. Or is it a kakistocracy?
James Kennedy: Well, I think that probably sums it up better. I don't want to keep harping on about this, but there is a genuine criminal element to all of this. If you look at some of the characters that this government is rubbing shoulders with, opening doors for, and lining the pockets of—some super shady characters from Uzbekistan, Russia, and the Middle East. The sort of dudes that are buying up properties in London to stuff the money from their public purse into, and much of these billions are coming from illicit means.
Marina Purkiss: Egyptian linked to a dictatorship out there gave the Tories just last week their biggest donation of £5 million, as if he's some philanthropist that doesn't want something back. Then you learn later that he's hosted dinner parties in his Belgravia house where he's invited people like Rishi Sunak and Kwasi Kwarteng. As if they aren't having chats about stuff! Of course Kwasi Kwarteng was having a chat there with him about doing what he did pre-mini-budget. It's so wrong, it's so scandalous, and in any other walk of life it wouldn't be allowed to happen.
James Kennedy: You're bang on, because those environments are where the conversations happen as well. They don't just happen out there in the open under the eye of scrutiny in the Houses of Parliament. They happen at these benefit gigs and these dinner parties off the record. It's a community that is a million miles higher above where the rest of us live and operate, and it operates for its own self-perpetuation.
Marina Purkiss: Exactly, which is why it operates within WhatsApp. Government doesn't want to hand over now. Do you remember when Lord Bethell lost his phone? Then it was broken, then he gave it to a family member. He wouldn't hand over his phone because he was embroiled in the whole PPE scandal as the health minister overseeing the awarding of multi-million-pound contracts. He was the same, not wanting to hand over his phone. They do all this stuff thinking that we shouldn't have to be privy to it when we absolutely should. This is our money and these are government comms.
James Kennedy: People seem to forget because it's been bad for so long now, we forget that there are supposed to be certain standards and values to the conduct of politics which are just long gone. In the pandemic and the Trump era, that whole system of doing things took a bullet in the ass. Now you can say what you like, you can be like the macho man thing, you can lie openly, and it's all just a laugh. It's not a problem. It's about making loads of money for the few. It's like they don't even have to cover it up anymore or give a shit really because there's no recompense.
Marina Purkiss: This is Johnson's legacy, and we saw it continue with Truss with the bullshit that she would talk in the Commons, and it goes on with Sunak. Although Sunak and Truss couldn't deliver it with such aplomb. You listen to Sunak now, Jesus Christ, he's like a busted Woody doll. He just says the same shit over and over again on repeat, sounds so false, and has absolutely zero charisma. I don't even know if he's human sometimes, the way he talks.
If you hear some of the discussions that go on in Parliament at PMQs now, it's infantile. A question is asked, and the opposition bench will just respond with a dig that's not even in response to the question. It'll just be something to do with Corbyn or Jimmy Savile. It's become so base, the level of discourse in this country, and that has gone right through to the electorate.
In fact, I was listening to LBC this morning on Nick Ferrari's show—because it's good to keep an ear on what these people talk about. Some guy called in saying he wasn't happy with the Tories and was never going to vote for them, and Ferrari said, "Why is that?" He said, "Oh, because Starmer will make a dog's dinner of the country." Ferrari, fair enough, actually said, "Well, do you not think the country is already a bit of a dog's dinner?" He said, "Yes, but Starmer will make it worse because he doesn't even know what a woman is."
What the fuck? Sorry, I'm just trying to wrap my head around that. Do you remember Starmer had that interview with Nick Ferrari on his LBC show where he was asked to define what a woman was because of the whole debate? Keir Starmer was probably nervous around the topic, scared of saying the wrong thing, so he ended up dancing around it. It sounded like he was unable to answer the question, and that has stuck with him because it snowballed in the mass media. Now the narrative is Starmer can't rule the country because he doesn't even know what a woman is.
James Kennedy: It's depressing, isn't it? That's the level where we're at in 2023.
Marina Purkiss: That's what happens when you've got the majority of the press with the really loud, sensationalist voices, and they know it's effective. See these headlines in The Daily Mail—it lands messages. When you've got that against the opposition, it's tough. Look at what Starmer did: he had a donkey sanctuary and they tried to make that into a scandal. Can you imagine if Starmer had done a fraction of the shagging, the scandal, and the corruption?
James Kennedy: Game over, dead in the water. Look at Corbyn. You've got a lifelong anti-war campaigner labeled as a fucking racist. Whether you agree with the guy's politics or not, the guy is clearly not an anti-Semite, and neither are most of the people getting tarnished with that horrible label lately. We're living in an era now where somebody can be called a racist or an anti-Semite just because someone says they are, and that's good enough. Well, it's not good enough. The idea of truth and tangible fact is irrelevant these days. But these are such loaded terms that as soon as someone says that, it's game over for you. There's just no going back.
Marina Purkiss: No, and that still reverberates. People still think it. In Keir Starmer's defense, he is doing a good job to literally stamp out anything as soon as there is any whiff of anti-Semitism or dodginess. He's been really quick to straight away get that person out of the party. We saw it last week with Geraint Davies, the Labour MP who I always thought was pretty decent. He had to step down for allegedly bringing hookers into the Houses of Parliament to the bars.
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James Kennedy: Sounds like a lot of fun, doesn't it? Well, I'm not shocked because I thought that was quite standard fit. It's like a frat house.
Marina Purkiss: It's like a frat house in there, basically. That's my understanding. I've been in there once. Have you been in there at all? I went to the House of Lords recently and met with Baroness Jenny Jones, went for lunch with her. She's lovely. She's cool.
James Kennedy: I was in the House of Lords funnily enough as well in September as part of a talk on Brexit in the music industry. It was bizarre being in there. You mentioned frat house; to me, it felt like going back to school a little bit. It was so old-fashioned and weird. You did get the impression that they could be very much like a boys' club or a frat house where they're locked in a certain period in time where you just do what the fuck you like and none of it matters anymore.
Marina Purkiss: You can do what the fuck you like. Just bear in mind as well: Boris Johnson has stood down now, but he was still an MP taking that £80k+ salary while off doing speaking gigs in Vegas taking millions of pounds. First off, if you're going to Vegas and listening to Johnson, you are not doing Vegas right. But he's taking millions of pounds, still taking his salary despite the fact he missed 187 votes in the Commons. How is that even allowed?
James Kennedy: It just infuriates me. I try to distance myself from it on a day-by-day basis because it's relentless and makes me so frustrated and angry. How do you deal with this? How do you navigate being immersed in this as intensely as you are? You must feel like you're losing your mind sometimes.
Marina Purkiss: Basically, anger is my fuel. I just can't stand it; it's so unjust. It's the scale of it. You expect a few bad ends, a little bit of corruption, a little bit of rule-breaking, but this is on an industrial scale. It is every day, it is getting worse, and we need to do something about it.
James Kennedy: 100%. That is the clip I'm going to use for the promo.
Well, you've mentioned Keir a few times now, so let's switch gears and talk about the opposition that we have. I'd love to know what your thoughts are on the Labour Party and their current incarnation. I'm not going to say what I think; we'll just see where this goes. So, Labour: what do you think?
Marina Purkiss: Okay, I feel like I'm going to caveat this by saying in the next election I will be voting for Labour. The reason I'm doing that is because in my constituency, the best hope of making sure a Tory doesn't get in—although it is a Labour constituency anyway—is to vote Labour. I would encourage anyone, if you want to get the Tories out, vote tactically. Close to the time, there will be websites telling you who to vote for to unseat the Tory.
So I will be voting Labour. That said, I'm completely disillusioned with them, and I am disappointed with some of the things they're doing, though I understand the stance they're taking.
The Brexit stance—which pisses me off, pisses loads of people off, and makes us feel politically homeless—I understand it. I understand why they don't want to make the next election about another de facto Brexit referendum. If there's any talk whatsoever about realignment with the EU, the Tories and the right-wing press will spin it as "he wants to reverse the will of the people." You can see that because they're doing it now.
Think about how final Keir Starmer has been when talking about Brexit. Rachel Reeves just the other day said the future of the UK is outside of the EU. You can't get language that is more final, and yet the Tories and the right-wing press will still tell you that Labour wants to bring us back into Europe. So that's why they're having to do that. I understand that, as much as I hate hearing it.
What I don't like, though, is that while Labour wants to be a party of government, right now they are an opposition party. When you're in opposition, you have to oppose stuff. When you've got the Tories in power, you have to oppose the shitty, authoritarian, democracy-undermining bills that they are passing—the Public Order Bill, for example. That very authoritarian Public Order Bill saw people arrested for just thinking about protesting.
If you thought that was bad, it's actually getting worse. The government wanted to change the wording of "serious disruption" within the Public Order Bill to mean "anything more than minor." They couldn't do it because the Lords threw this out. Yet the government is currently trying to use a ministerial decree—something that has never been done before—to overturn the vote of the Lords to make this change.
Baroness Jenny Jones, the Green Party peer I just mentioned, tabled a fatal motion to try and kill this dead. Tomorrow, the 13th of June, we get the results of that fatal motion. What she needs here is the Labour Lords to back her in this, and for some unknown reason at the time, they weren't backing her. Labour needs to oppose this stuff. I don't like that Keir Starmer said about the Public Order Bill when asked if he'd repeal it: "We'll let it bed in." No! You don't let fascism bed in.
There are so many other bits and pieces. We want to hear that you're going to chuck out things like the Illegal Migration Bill that breaks international law and will cost us £6 billion over two years for what? We need to hear that you don't like the Rwanda plan. There are so many things we need you to repeal or just tell us, "Guys, this is awful, we're going to fix it."
A real vote winner would be something along the lines of, "We will launch a full investigation into the fraud behind COVID, the VIP lane, and the corruption." So many people need justice. We need the funds to be recovered, and we need those people to face justice. Otherwise, what is the point? It feels so wrong that a person committing benefit fraud can be jailed for swindling the system out of a few grand, and yet you can swindle the system—in Michelle Mone's case, allegedly—for hundreds of millions of pounds, go buy a yacht, and nothing happens.
Logistically, that's probably really difficult to do, but there are certain things people want to hear, like proportional representation. Keir Starmer, back in the day, gave pledges that we quite liked the sound of. He promised proportional representation. He understood and said out loud that in our current first-past-the-post system, people feel their vote is wasted, which it is. I wouldn't vote Labour if I had a choice right now, but I'm going to because I have to. So many people feel the same way. I'd probably vote Green.
He's ditched proportional representation now, and to me, if you are pro-democracy, you need to be pro-proportional representation because that means everyone's vote matters. The Conservatives are shitting their pants about this as well. Lord Cruddas, who allegedly paid for his peerage—another one of these deluded, disciplined stooges of Johnson desperate to get him back—stood up at that National Conservatism event and said if Labour gets in, they're going to deliver proportional representation, and that means the Tories will never get a majority again.
The hilarity behind it is that proportional representation is democratic; it means votes match seats. So if you're saying out loud that proportional representation won't deliver Tory governments, that's because the majority of voters do not want a Conservative government. I thought you guys were all about the will of the people? Absolutely bananas.
James Kennedy: That was a beautiful rant, thank you for that. I needed that. Listening to you is like political therapy. I feel recharged, refreshed, got a bit of fire in my belly, and I'm ready to start my week again.
Marina Purkiss: We love making the podcast because my friends don't talk about politics and they don't care for it. If you feel the way we feel, but your friends and family aren't interested in it, it can feel quite lonely and isolating at times. So us making the podcast and people listening to it does feel like political therapy.
James Kennedy: Definitely. The podcast is brilliant. I'll be plugging it at the end of this episode and linking it in the episode description so people can check out The Trawl podcast with Marina Purkiss and Gemma Forte. You will not regret it.
I totally echo everything you've said about the Labour Party as well. I understand the difficult corner that they're forced into, but I also share a deep and intense sense of disillusionment and disappointment in that party. I've been a member my entire life and have now been a member of the Greens for the past few years as a result of all the things you've mentioned: the Blairite backstabbing, infighting, the watering down of any traditional Labour principle, the pandering to big business and the media, but mostly because of how fucking useless they've been at opposing the absolute reckless, evil behemoth that is the Tory party and the unrestrained carnage that they've been wreaking on this country for the past 13 years.
It's so bad now, it's such a shame. If this is the opposition, then we're fucked. Part of me thinks Labour knows the next election is pretty much a given—that hatred for the Tories is so universal that it's going to be a Labour landslide and it's already in the bag. Even if that's the case, there is going to be a bad taste left in a lot of people's mouths for a long time to come.
Marina Purkiss: How taken for granted do you feel as well? All the people that want to rejoin the EU—and the polls tell us now that's a massive chunk of people—we're just politically homeless. We're just ignored.
James Kennedy: We don't count. There's an optimist in me that thinks maybe once we oust the current cartel and get a new Labour government in, despite the aforementioned shortcomings, maybe it could be the start of a new chapter—a slow, frustrating, messy restart in the right direction. The problem is the bad guys still have a majority influence over Parliament and the media, so those problems still exist.
Marina Purkiss: Which is why I think a coalition government is the best-case scenario. If we have a coalition government with the Lib Dems and Greens, for example, they could help keep Labour honest. That gets Labour out of breaking promises because they have to negotiate with coalition partners, and that's how we can get some of these good policies in.
I do not think this is an open-and-shut case. We have potentially another 16 or 17 months until the general election, and I don't doubt that the Tories could swing it still. A lot could happen.
James Kennedy: I fear you might be right. I consider myself a pessimist, but someone said to me the other day that a pessimist is essentially an optimist that has been burned too many times, and that is definitely the case for me. I never thought we were going to vote for Brexit, I never thought Trump was going to get in, I never thought Boris was going to get in—I didn't think we were that fucking stupid. Time and time again, it's just bam, bam, bam, and we're voting for this shit. It is so desperate, bleak, corrupt, wrong, evil, and fucking destructive that it cannot get any worse, and we cannot be so naive that we're going to vote for these guys again. But you might be right. I shudder to think it, but you might be right.
Marina Purkiss: It's the hope that kills you, James.
James Kennedy: It really does. Speaking of hope, you said earlier that anger is your fuel, but what about hope? You must have hope for a better future, hope that the fight is winnable, and hope that justice will prevail. What keeps you hopeful?
Marina Purkiss: I don't always feel hopeful. I chat to Femi Oluwole—he's brilliant, a force for good who was massively anti-Brexit. We message every now and then and go through periods of despair like, "Oh Jesus, what's happening here?" He told me a Martin Luther King line: "We will get there. The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice."
If you look at history, civilization tends to go from really bloody into the shit, and then we come out of it again, and then we go back into it. It feels inevitable that we are in our huge downturn right now, and we are probably still not at the bottom yet. I could never have predicted our government to be so broken or predicted the damage that one party could do so quickly. I think we're having to crash and burn, and then we will rise from the ashes like a phoenix. I don't know if Starmer is going to be the one to help us lift that phoenix, but we'll get there.
James Kennedy: Love it. What does a better future look like to you?
Marina Purkiss: First and foremost, you have to do something with the press in this country. The gutter press is responsible for poisoning the political discourse and stoking culture wars, which creates so much hate and animosity between groups. It makes us feel like a nasty country sometimes.
We need press regulation. I read that The Spectator and The Telegraph were going—did I dream that or read that? Good riddance. We need Murdoch to pop his clogs and for them all to bugger off, because they are a cancer.
In our politics, the policies that will really shift things need to tackle inequality in this country. Welfare is not just about the people at the bottom rung of the ladder; it's about all of our welfare. If people get really poor and desperate, desperate people make it a worry for everyone in society.
We need to look at our welfare system and public sector pay. No one should be in full-time work and still having to claim Universal Credit.
We need to fix the NHS. I know there's middle management waste that needs targeting, but for me, the most important short-term thing is: recruit more doctors, recruit more nurses, and retain them. That's going to solve a lot of problems.
I think we need a more progressive tax system. I don't like paying taxes—no one does—but I will pay higher taxes if I know my taxes are going into public services like schools, hospitals, and building houses so the next generation can afford to get on the housing ladder.
I've got no problem with a wealth tax. Tax the shithouse out of those bastards! I'm not talking about someone on £60k; I'm talking about if you earn £250k, £500k, £5 million, £10 million. Make it progressive.
The published tax returns of Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak show how unjust our taxation system is. A nurse paying a higher effective tax rate than a billionaire tells you everything that's bloody wrong with this country. If we fix that, scrap non-dom status, and stop offshore squirreling away of money, it would bring in a lot of money. The amount lost in fraud, offshoring, tax avoidance, and tax evasion is a lot. It would give us stellar public services if we managed to clamp down on that, but the Tories don't want to do that.
We need an actual credible green plan as well. Insulate Britain is onto something because we've got the shittiest houses in Europe when it comes to efficiency. We leak heat through our houses, which is inefficient and massively expensive for our bills. We've got some of the highest energy bills on the planet.
We should look at nationalizing energy (which costs loads of money and there's nothing in the coffers right now, so possibly long term) and water. We need to take the power away from corporations and put it back to the people. A privatized company is not going to do anything to benefit us when they have shareholders as the priority to make money for.
I feel like I've just reeled off a load of stuff, but all of that would make things better. Oh, one more: mental health services, youth services, and education. If you fix those things now, you don't get the long-term problems caused by neglecting them. But we've got short-sighted, selfish governments who don't think like that. If they are struck by problems in education or healthcare, they go private, which is why they don't care to fix them. That's what I would do.
James Kennedy: Wow. Standing ovation! That was my favorite rant of the year by far.
Marina Purkiss: Sorry, James! You wind me up, watch me go.
James Kennedy: That was insane off the cuff. I just sat back, shut up, and let it wash over me. Thank you for that. It was beautifully delivered and I agree with everything you said. Most people listening will too, because it's sensible common-sense stuff that benefits everybody. You're not some flag-waving, raging socialist; this is non-controversial stuff to make life better for the majority and not the 1%.
Marina Purkiss: I didn't realize I was a lefty; I just thought I wasn't a knob, that was it.
James Kennedy: You've certainly got a few enemies who would probably disagree with that, but good! A man with no enemies is no man at all, as the saying goes. I'm going to have to let you go soon, unfortunately, because I could listen to you talk all day, as I'm sure the listeners could.
Marina Purkiss: My husband says exactly the opposite! I get a lot of people saying, "God, imagine being married to her."
James Kennedy: He probably does deserve an award of some kind by now. If people want to hear more, where can they find you?
Marina Purkiss: I'm on Twitter at @marinapurkiss (M-A-R-I-N-A P-U-R-K-I-S-S). If you want a bit of this level of chat with funny bits, real insight, and analysis, listen to Gemma Forte and me on The Trawl podcast. We have some very good listeners: James O'Brien listens, Gary Lineker listens, Carol Vorderman listens. It will make you feel good at the end of it as well.
James Kennedy: And a million other people as well, as you just mentioned, tune in. It hasn't been going that long, right? You haven't done 100 episodes yet.
Marina Purkiss: No, we're on episode 69.
James Kennedy: That's insane. But there we go, we know people agree with this stuff.
Key Points:
The final episode of season one features an interview with political commentator and podcaster Marina Purkiss.
Marina Purkiss describes Britain in 2023 as broken, divided, poorer after 13 years of Conservative government, and dominated by a sympathetic press.
Both speakers criticize the Conservative government for corruption, lying in Parliament, and cronyism, citing examples like the VIP lane scandal and Suella Braverman refusing to correct false statements.
They discuss disillusionment with the Labour Party, with Marina stating she will vote Labour tactically to remove the Tories but is disappointed by its stance on Brexit and the Public Order Bill.
Marina outlines her vision for a better future, including press regulation, tackling inequality, progressive taxation, fixing the NHS, nationalizing water, and improving mental health services.
James announces season two will return after the summer with new guests, and encourages listeners to explore past episodes and follow Marina's podcast, The Trawl.
Summary:
The episode features a wide-ranging conversation with political commentator Marina Purkiss, who describes Britain in 2023 as broken, divided, and poorer after 13 years of Conservative rule.
They discuss government corruption, lying in Parliament, the influence of the right-wing press, and disillusionment with the Labour Party. Marina explains she will vote Labour tactically to remove the Tories but criticizes the party's Brexit stance and failure to oppose authoritarian bills. She outlines a vision for a better future including press regulation, progressive taxation, NHS investment, and nationalizing water.
The conversation ends with both expressing hope for justice and change. James confirms season two will return after the summer with new guests and encourages listeners to follow Marina's podcast, The Trawl.
The James Kennedy Podcast is a Society and Culture podcast hosted by musician and author, James Kennedy. Exploring the big questions around health, social issues, the arts, politics, mental health, the human condition and how to navigate this thing called life through casual conversations with scientists, activists, rock stars, philosophers and academics. Please subscribe, leave a rating and support the show.
